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	<title>Comments for The Existential Buddhist</title>
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	<description>dharma without dogma</description>
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		<title>Comment on The Sky Above, the Mud Below by Seth Segall</title>
		<link>http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/2012/02/the-sky-above-the-mud-below/#comment-1174</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Segall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Feb 2012 14:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/?p=362#comment-1174</guid>
		<description>Science contain contradictions?  You mean like in quantum mechanics vs. relativity?  How dare you point that out!

I guess the place where tensions and internal contradictions meet is the place where the rubber hits the road.  Psychologist Marsha Linehan developed a therapy called Dialectical Behavioral Therapy.  Borrowing from Hegel, she thought that all forward progression involved the synthesis of opposites.  In therapy that meant telling patients that they were &quot;fine just as they were&quot; and they &quot;had to change&quot;.  Fritz Perls thought the same thing - that opposites were really polarities in need of integration.  The trick is figuring out how to do that in a way that enlarges oneself and doesn&#039;t simply tie oneself into knots.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Science contain contradictions?  You mean like in quantum mechanics vs. relativity?  How dare you point that out!</p>
<p>I guess the place where tensions and internal contradictions meet is the place where the rubber hits the road.  Psychologist Marsha Linehan developed a therapy called Dialectical Behavioral Therapy.  Borrowing from Hegel, she thought that all forward progression involved the synthesis of opposites.  In therapy that meant telling patients that they were &#8220;fine just as they were&#8221; and they &#8220;had to change&#8221;.  Fritz Perls thought the same thing &#8211; that opposites were really polarities in need of integration.  The trick is figuring out how to do that in a way that enlarges oneself and doesn&#8217;t simply tie oneself into knots.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Sky Above, the Mud Below by David</title>
		<link>http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/2012/02/the-sky-above-the-mud-below/#comment-1172</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Feb 2012 04:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/?p=362#comment-1172</guid>
		<description>I added “end-state” as more or less an afterthought, but it wasn’t in my mind so much. I was thinking more about how I suppose the Sangha promoted the image of the harmless bhikkhu, just happy and peaceful, spending most of his time indoors or secluded in the forest, no real threat to anyone, politically or otherwise.

Now, I have to ask, what is there that does not have some internal contradiction, some tension? Is there no tension in Shakespeare? How about existentialism? No tension there? Any internal contradiction in modern science?

You do have a point about the nirvanic ideal. It’s definitely oversold.  And it’s not just in the Pali Canon, it’s all over Zen and the Mahayana canon, too. They all say pretty much the same thing, which is that desire etc. can cease to arise completely, permanently and irreversibly. So, are we to take that literally, or view such statements as spiritual metaphors?

The bodhisattva vows is a good example. The first vow is to save all living beings, and the fourth is to attain complete enlightenment. It’s said that if a bodhisattva fails to achieve the first vow, then the fourth one can never be realized. But how can ALL livings beings be saved? Do we just say well, that&#039;s no good and forget about it? Or, should we try to capture the spirit behind the thought of saving all beings?

This is what I think so many people miss. I really kind of hate to give Nichiren kudos, but he was right on about this point: it is the spirit behind the words that are more important than the words themselves.

Sure the sutras were misogynistic. It was a pretty misogynistic world back in the day. We don’t to carry that forward. Puritanism? I don’t know if I’d agree. Detachment is good. Celibacy, overrated. And a constricted range of human experiencing, I completely disagree with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I added “end-state” as more or less an afterthought, but it wasn’t in my mind so much. I was thinking more about how I suppose the Sangha promoted the image of the harmless bhikkhu, just happy and peaceful, spending most of his time indoors or secluded in the forest, no real threat to anyone, politically or otherwise.</p>
<p>Now, I have to ask, what is there that does not have some internal contradiction, some tension? Is there no tension in Shakespeare? How about existentialism? No tension there? Any internal contradiction in modern science?</p>
<p>You do have a point about the nirvanic ideal. It’s definitely oversold.  And it’s not just in the Pali Canon, it’s all over Zen and the Mahayana canon, too. They all say pretty much the same thing, which is that desire etc. can cease to arise completely, permanently and irreversibly. So, are we to take that literally, or view such statements as spiritual metaphors?</p>
<p>The bodhisattva vows is a good example. The first vow is to save all living beings, and the fourth is to attain complete enlightenment. It’s said that if a bodhisattva fails to achieve the first vow, then the fourth one can never be realized. But how can ALL livings beings be saved? Do we just say well, that&#8217;s no good and forget about it? Or, should we try to capture the spirit behind the thought of saving all beings?</p>
<p>This is what I think so many people miss. I really kind of hate to give Nichiren kudos, but he was right on about this point: it is the spirit behind the words that are more important than the words themselves.</p>
<p>Sure the sutras were misogynistic. It was a pretty misogynistic world back in the day. We don’t to carry that forward. Puritanism? I don’t know if I’d agree. Detachment is good. Celibacy, overrated. And a constricted range of human experiencing, I completely disagree with.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Sky Above, the Mud Below by Seth Segall</title>
		<link>http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/2012/02/the-sky-above-the-mud-below/#comment-1171</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Segall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 19:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/?p=362#comment-1171</guid>
		<description>Thanks, David.  We are in agreement on most points.  But I think you are letting the early Sangha off the hook too easily by suggesting they  promoted the nirvanic ideal for reasons that were in part political.  The Pali Canon is steeped from start to finish in promoting this end-state in which desire (and aversion and delusion) cease to arise completely, permanently and irreversibly.  I don&#039;t mean to be dismissive of the Canon.  There&#039;s a lot in it that&#039;s beneficial --  learning to discriminate between skillful and unskillful desires and detach from one&#039;s that lead to harm, developing the ability to monitor internal and external process and respond more skillfully to unfolding  situations, learning how to cultivate a still, quiet center and create an internal space to contain all our inner experience.  All good stuff.  But it&#039;s all intertwined with not-so-good stuff -- misogyny, Puritanism, and an ideal of detachment, celibacy, and a constricted range of human experiencing.  I experience the  Zen reformulation of that ideal as a marked improvement.  It&#039;s just that all too often Buddhist commentators fail to note that there even is this internal contradiction in Buddhist teachings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, David.  We are in agreement on most points.  But I think you are letting the early Sangha off the hook too easily by suggesting they  promoted the nirvanic ideal for reasons that were in part political.  The Pali Canon is steeped from start to finish in promoting this end-state in which desire (and aversion and delusion) cease to arise completely, permanently and irreversibly.  I don&#8217;t mean to be dismissive of the Canon.  There&#8217;s a lot in it that&#8217;s beneficial &#8212;  learning to discriminate between skillful and unskillful desires and detach from one&#8217;s that lead to harm, developing the ability to monitor internal and external process and respond more skillfully to unfolding  situations, learning how to cultivate a still, quiet center and create an internal space to contain all our inner experience.  All good stuff.  But it&#8217;s all intertwined with not-so-good stuff &#8212; misogyny, Puritanism, and an ideal of detachment, celibacy, and a constricted range of human experiencing.  I experience the  Zen reformulation of that ideal as a marked improvement.  It&#8217;s just that all too often Buddhist commentators fail to note that there even is this internal contradiction in Buddhist teachings.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Sky Above, the Mud Below by David</title>
		<link>http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/2012/02/the-sky-above-the-mud-below/#comment-1170</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 18:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/?p=362#comment-1170</guid>
		<description>Seth, the part of the problem is not just with ourselves pretending to live up to this impossible ideal, but also with members of society projecting it onto us. Pity the poor Buddhist who displays some impatience, irritation, or anger. He or she is then subjected to “Where’s all that deep wisdom?” or “Pretty far from enlightenment, aren’t we?” So, we find ourselves confronted with this stereotypical image of a Buddhist from both within and without. 

I suspect the early Sangha promoted this image of the perfectly peaceful, non-threatening Buddhist as a political expedient, to provide protection from governments and others that might be hostile to Buddhism. It’s also worth noting that this ideal is not that different from the ideal of the sage in Daoism, and that having an ideal, something to strive toward, is not altogether a bad thing, when tempered with some reason. 

If we interpret the teachings in such a way that we feel we’re being asked to become something inhuman or to turn ourselves into a sort of Stepford Buddhist, then that’s our mistake. Realistically, I think all that’s asked of us is to try, to strive. That’s why Shantideva wrote, “To unify and discipline my spirit I will strive.” And why Nichiren wrote, “Austere practices are for saints and sages, but not for ordinary people. Yet even common mortals can attain Buddhahood if they cherish one thing: earnest faith. In the deepest sense, earnest faith is the will to understand and live up to the spirit, not the words, of the sutras.”

If Buddhahood is a process, then the ideal, or &quot;end state,&quot; can never be fully realized. But then ideals are merely archetypes, examples – something to strive for. The sky above looks blue, but that&#039;s an illusion. Yet we like lotus flowers that can only grow in the mud, nonetheless rise up, and strive to reach for that lovely halcyon and wild blue yonder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth, the part of the problem is not just with ourselves pretending to live up to this impossible ideal, but also with members of society projecting it onto us. Pity the poor Buddhist who displays some impatience, irritation, or anger. He or she is then subjected to “Where’s all that deep wisdom?” or “Pretty far from enlightenment, aren’t we?” So, we find ourselves confronted with this stereotypical image of a Buddhist from both within and without. </p>
<p>I suspect the early Sangha promoted this image of the perfectly peaceful, non-threatening Buddhist as a political expedient, to provide protection from governments and others that might be hostile to Buddhism. It’s also worth noting that this ideal is not that different from the ideal of the sage in Daoism, and that having an ideal, something to strive toward, is not altogether a bad thing, when tempered with some reason. </p>
<p>If we interpret the teachings in such a way that we feel we’re being asked to become something inhuman or to turn ourselves into a sort of Stepford Buddhist, then that’s our mistake. Realistically, I think all that’s asked of us is to try, to strive. That’s why Shantideva wrote, “To unify and discipline my spirit I will strive.” And why Nichiren wrote, “Austere practices are for saints and sages, but not for ordinary people. Yet even common mortals can attain Buddhahood if they cherish one thing: earnest faith. In the deepest sense, earnest faith is the will to understand and live up to the spirit, not the words, of the sutras.”</p>
<p>If Buddhahood is a process, then the ideal, or &#8220;end state,&#8221; can never be fully realized. But then ideals are merely archetypes, examples – something to strive for. The sky above looks blue, but that&#8217;s an illusion. Yet we like lotus flowers that can only grow in the mud, nonetheless rise up, and strive to reach for that lovely halcyon and wild blue yonder.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Sky Above, the Mud Below by Seth Segall</title>
		<link>http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/2012/02/the-sky-above-the-mud-below/#comment-1169</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Segall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/?p=362#comment-1169</guid>
		<description>Ben -- thanks, as always, for your thoughtful comments.  The idea of full presence is common to many contemporary forms of Western Buddhism and I didn&#039;t mean to limit it to Western Zen, although I think it has more prominence there than elsewhere.  I didn&#039;t intend to limit it to the contemporary and the Western either -- I was just being cautious -- I&#039;m not a good enough historian to generalize to other times and cultures.

I agree that being open within oneself and becoming more compassionate of others are not mutually exclusive goals.  Carl Rogers may have been the first to posit that people who are more accepting of their own internal experience are more accepting of others as well.  I certainly embrace both polarities within my own practice.  

My biggest issue is what the &quot;end state&quot; of Buddhist practice is. [If there is an &quot;end state&quot; -- I don&#039;t personally believe there is, but 2,500 years of Buddhist doctrine asserts its existence.]   The Pali Canon model -- as best as I can interpret it --  which may be closest to what the Buddha actually taught -- doesn&#039;t stir me these days.  The end of desire and aversion and preternatural calmness doesn&#039;t seem all that attractive.  My practice seems much more alive and vital and, dare I say it, human.  I worry about practitioners who in trying to live up to (or pretending to live up to) that goal may be sacricing their own humanity and aliveness in the process.  

But yes, being open to and connected to all of life is not incompatible with being a more decent human being.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben &#8212; thanks, as always, for your thoughtful comments.  The idea of full presence is common to many contemporary forms of Western Buddhism and I didn&#8217;t mean to limit it to Western Zen, although I think it has more prominence there than elsewhere.  I didn&#8217;t intend to limit it to the contemporary and the Western either &#8212; I was just being cautious &#8212; I&#8217;m not a good enough historian to generalize to other times and cultures.</p>
<p>I agree that being open within oneself and becoming more compassionate of others are not mutually exclusive goals.  Carl Rogers may have been the first to posit that people who are more accepting of their own internal experience are more accepting of others as well.  I certainly embrace both polarities within my own practice.  </p>
<p>My biggest issue is what the &#8220;end state&#8221; of Buddhist practice is. [If there is an "end state" -- I don't personally believe there is, but 2,500 years of Buddhist doctrine asserts its existence.]   The Pali Canon model &#8212; as best as I can interpret it &#8212;  which may be closest to what the Buddha actually taught &#8212; doesn&#8217;t stir me these days.  The end of desire and aversion and preternatural calmness doesn&#8217;t seem all that attractive.  My practice seems much more alive and vital and, dare I say it, human.  I worry about practitioners who in trying to live up to (or pretending to live up to) that goal may be sacricing their own humanity and aliveness in the process.  </p>
<p>But yes, being open to and connected to all of life is not incompatible with being a more decent human being.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Sky Above, the Mud Below by Ben Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/2012/02/the-sky-above-the-mud-below/#comment-1168</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Feb 2012 12:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/?p=362#comment-1168</guid>
		<description>Seth -

Thanks for this thoughtful, probing essay. Perhaps the tension between the ideals of openness to experience and the perfection of a compassionate self might best be resolved in action, which is to say, in meditation followed by acts of compassion. Thich Nhat Hanh has often remarked that we must address our own suffering before we can address anyone else’s. As he puts it in Living Buddha, Living Christ, “we have to dissolve all prejudices, barriers, and walls and empty ourselves in order to listen and look deeply before we utter even one word.”

I’m not so sure that the “notion of being present for all of life” is unique to “Western Zen” or is even a defining attribute. Versions of that “notion” appear widely in Buddhist texts, many of them Theravadan, and though the idea of being open to it all may seem to be at odds with cultivating a more loving or compassionate self, in practice that need not be the case. Perhaps you are pointing to an underlying tension between Buddhist meditation as mental cultivation (bhavana) and meditation as awareness (djana). Even so, I think that the same person can practice both, if not necessarily at the same time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth -</p>
<p>Thanks for this thoughtful, probing essay. Perhaps the tension between the ideals of openness to experience and the perfection of a compassionate self might best be resolved in action, which is to say, in meditation followed by acts of compassion. Thich Nhat Hanh has often remarked that we must address our own suffering before we can address anyone else’s. As he puts it in Living Buddha, Living Christ, “we have to dissolve all prejudices, barriers, and walls and empty ourselves in order to listen and look deeply before we utter even one word.”</p>
<p>I’m not so sure that the “notion of being present for all of life” is unique to “Western Zen” or is even a defining attribute. Versions of that “notion” appear widely in Buddhist texts, many of them Theravadan, and though the idea of being open to it all may seem to be at odds with cultivating a more loving or compassionate self, in practice that need not be the case. Perhaps you are pointing to an underlying tension between Buddhist meditation as mental cultivation (bhavana) and meditation as awareness (djana). Even so, I think that the same person can practice both, if not necessarily at the same time.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Sky Above, the Mud Below by Seth Segall</title>
		<link>http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/2012/02/the-sky-above-the-mud-below/#comment-1165</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Segall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 20:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/?p=362#comment-1165</guid>
		<description>Glad you found the post useful, Mike!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad you found the post useful, Mike!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Sky Above, the Mud Below by Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/2012/02/the-sky-above-the-mud-below/#comment-1164</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/?p=362#comment-1164</guid>
		<description>You succinctly and accurately described what had been in my mind for the last few months while progressing with my practice. Thank you for reassuring me that my passions and ambitions are not something to be dissolved, but rather to be integrated and streamlined into my practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You succinctly and accurately described what had been in my mind for the last few months while progressing with my practice. Thank you for reassuring me that my passions and ambitions are not something to be dissolved, but rather to be integrated and streamlined into my practice.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Second Precept by Seth Segall</title>
		<link>http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/2011/06/the-second-precept/#comment-1162</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Segall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/?p=291#comment-1162</guid>
		<description>The State is traditionally invested with the authority to levy taxes and impose fines, penalties, and user fees, and to conscript is citizenry for necessary projects in every society I am aware of.  There is a whole body of political philosophy in the West that creates a framework for deciding when such activity is fair and justified and when it is not.  The state in this tradition reserves rights that are not accorded individuals.  Buddhism has never developed a political philosophy -- for the same reasons it never developed an ethical philosophy. In the West political and ethical theory arose simultaneously in ancient Athens.  Nevertheless, the Buddha -- in the &lt;em&gt;suttas&lt;/em&gt; that describe his conversations with Kings -- never argued against their ability to tax, raise armies, or punish criminals. The Buddha understood that Kings had their duties to their Kingdoms and had the authority to do what was necessary to fulfill those responsibilities.  King Ashoka, the first Buddhist King, raised taxes, as had every Buddhist King since.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The State is traditionally invested with the authority to levy taxes and impose fines, penalties, and user fees, and to conscript is citizenry for necessary projects in every society I am aware of.  There is a whole body of political philosophy in the West that creates a framework for deciding when such activity is fair and justified and when it is not.  The state in this tradition reserves rights that are not accorded individuals.  Buddhism has never developed a political philosophy &#8212; for the same reasons it never developed an ethical philosophy. In the West political and ethical theory arose simultaneously in ancient Athens.  Nevertheless, the Buddha &#8212; in the <em>suttas</em> that describe his conversations with Kings &#8212; never argued against their ability to tax, raise armies, or punish criminals. The Buddha understood that Kings had their duties to their Kingdoms and had the authority to do what was necessary to fulfill those responsibilities.  King Ashoka, the first Buddhist King, raised taxes, as had every Buddhist King since.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Second Precept by AkeemtheDream</title>
		<link>http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/2011/06/the-second-precept/#comment-1161</link>
		<dc:creator>AkeemtheDream</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.existentialbuddhist.com/?p=291#comment-1161</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’m not sure why you think it is wrong for society to demand that everyone pay his or her fair share for the common good&quot;

Stealing is taking what is not given. It doesn&#039;t say to go ahead and take without consent because you think it is justified. Just as much of the stolen money has been used for evil - used to prop up dictators and much more etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’m not sure why you think it is wrong for society to demand that everyone pay his or her fair share for the common good&#8221;</p>
<p>Stealing is taking what is not given. It doesn&#8217;t say to go ahead and take without consent because you think it is justified. Just as much of the stolen money has been used for evil &#8211; used to prop up dictators and much more etc.</p>
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